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A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Discussion about Rogue Touch for the iPhone and iPod Touch

Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby Glarvole » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:14 pm

Sudden thought on the name of the RT "Lite" version. Why not call it Rogue Test? It's the spirit of the game and keeps RT as RT.... Just a thought as I turn to a writing binge. Look for updates later today to the story of Me. ^_^
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby CommanderData » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:08 am

Lots of interesting responses here! I think I need to make a couple of posts to clarify things better... Starting at the top :D


NightOwl40 wrote:Hey there CD :D

I love the ideas for the "lite" version of Rogue Touch.......might help me as I still have not managed to survive long enough to get to the surface after finding that blasted amulet :oops:

Your new project sounds great, btw :mrgreen:



Glad that you approve of the lite concept. In the last 24 hours Apple has thrown a bit of a curve ball, in allowing even FREE apps/games to have in-app purchase. Meaning many lite games will likely contain the full version you can simply unlock. Note that we're not obligated to follow that model, but some people may come to expect it. I still think the two separate games is a great way to go, the people who want the extra boost can use RT "Lite" or whatever we end up calling it, and others can play the full version straight up without affecting their experience. Hopefully this will help you escape the dungeon finally! :lol:


Glarvole wrote:Sounds like an excellent plan! I will also be very happy with 1-3, but I would also like to see the lite version as well. I've yet to get the amulet, but that's mostly because I've been working on the story of Me.... A few more levels to type up, and I hope to get it done by tomorrow at the latest. ^_^

As for this new game you're making, sounds awesome! I'm in the process of making a game myself, but it's not going to the phone/pod right away.

8')



Glarvole, I definitely want to read more of your story, so please do post it. The "Story Time" thread was a great addition here, and it amused me to no end the imagination of everyone here as they played my ugly little game! At least it looks more interesting than the original ASCII, or that Atari ST version I played WAY too many times... :mrgreen:

Your "Rogue: Test" could be a good name choice, or maybe something like "Rogue: Training"? That's the least of my worries I guess. Plenty of time to think of a name while I work on stuff. :D

If you'd like to talk about game design sometime feel free to shout ;)
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby CommanderData » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:38 am

Nighthawk wrote:Condolences on the loss of family. Glad to have you back on the forums!

1-3 and 5 (if easy to implement) sound good. I'll gladly forego my secret character, especially considering it was more like a scenario than just a character.

Rogue Touch: Lite sounds like a good idea.

Like the sound of the new project, but I have a confession: maybe it's just my fat (clubbed) fingers, but I have yet to find an action-type game that uses a D-Pad/Quasi-Analog Knob control that I didn't get totally frustrated with and give up. I think it's the lack of tactile feedback. If it's more of a "click to move/attack" type a la Diablo, that would work for me. Additionally, when it comes to Rogue-likes, I heavily prefer turn-based but will make exceptions where the live-action provides deeper gameplay (Persona series, where being stealthy is an asset).

Lastly, be careful with using certain parts of Diablo as a model, namely the randomly generated loot. Make sure that it generates useful items a greater percentage of the time.



Thank you Nighthawk and everyone who's sent their condolences. It is greatly appreciated here!

It sounds like the consensus here is Rogue Touch isn't really broken, other than a few exploits and oddities that should be fixed. That and pushing the "reset button" on the leaderboards to give everyone a fair shot with the newly fixed rules (and prevent score posting from older copies). Also glad to hear the "Lite" idea has merit. This is something I'd thought about for a while, but just another "me-too" lite version is no fun. I think the training mission will be a neat prelude, and the character transfer into another game is something I have not seen done yet. :ugeek:

Maybe I should combine responses to your thoughts on the unnamed project with others at the end of this post, so read on!


swhatley wrote:CD,

I like your ideas for RTLite nad the Roguesmart store. The store should have some standard items and then some nice random items. BTW, in the store, would there be a chance of buying a cursed item that is in, let's say, the unidentified items bin? That would be interesting for risk takers to take a chance on buying a powerful or cursed item from the UIB. If you do this last idea, be sure to prompt the buyer, "The item could be normal, powerful, or CURSED! Are you sure?" or something like that and with the fine print of "Scroll of Identity not included.".

As far as the original RT, the one feature from the ones I've suggested in the RT request thread is the ability to choose between the male or female avatar. It would be nice to have more avatar choices like 4 male and 4 female but the 2 choices would do fine. Can hardly wait for the new surprises (items and/or monsters) you have in mind for the new RT version.

As for as "Project Unknown Title" (or PUT, for short) goes, I hope it is mostly turn based like RT instead of full action. I checked out Dungeon Hunter as mentioned above and find controlling the action to be difficult on such a small screen. The movement control just seems too hyper to me. But, I do really like how it brings in helper characters to fight along beside your character. It gets lonely traveling through a dungeon by yourself. Also, having different character classes like in Angband (or Moria) would be fun.

I need to get back to playing RT because it is fun. Thanks for the hard work you have done. And, I look forward to what comes next!

Thanks & Enjoy life!
Steven



Steven, excellent ideas for the "Roguesmart" store :D I do agree that there would be a basic array of items that is always available, and in limited quantity too... so you can't just buy 10 healing potions, or 5 potions of raise level, or some nonsense like that. Randomly available items are a neat perk- especially if you are not quite sure what you are buying is good or bad.

Choosing an avatar is not out of the question, ever since the changes I made when the female characters were added this spring. I liked the simplicity of just typing in a name, rather than a multi-step character creation process, but maybe there's a way to have the option elsewhere- you pick your favorite and it's the default that you always see when starting a game? Let me see what I can do, that could make others happy too!

I'll funnel the new game discussion to the end, along with Nighthawk's feedback, continue below!


JonathanCR wrote:I think it's a very good idea to make just the listed (minor) fixes to Rogue Touch, and save the new ideas for a new game. Rogue Touch isn't broken - it doesn't need fixing.

The Rogue Touch Lite idea is brilliant. In fact you should call it something else - perhaps Rogue Touch Prelude or something - to indicate that it's a little different from the usual "lite" offering. It's especially clever because while most "lite" games aim to get the player interested in the game and persuade them to buy the full thing, this one would also get the player interested in the character they have already built up and want to see what happens to him next. (Hope they don't get *too* attached to him though...)

As for the new game, I'm very pleased to hear that you're working on it, given the excellence of Rogue Touch itself. I'm sure that a roguelike game from you with new and original elements will be something special. It's not entirely clear from your description, though, whether you're thinking in terms of a roguelike game (i.e. turn-based, all "action" is imaginary) or something that plays more like Diablo (i.e. real-time, all action is fairly graphic). As people have indicated there are already games of the latter kind available on the iThing and there would be a lot of competition involved. (And personally I'm not a great fan of the "clickfest" style of RPG - you just can't get the complexity of objects and actions that you can in a roguelike game, because you don't have time to browse the menus or whatever to use/perform them in realtime - but that's probably beside the point.) However, there are no roguelikes that I know of available on the device, other than Rogue Touch and its rival Rogue, so there is a clearer field. I commented in a couple of other threads about how I enjoyed Moria back in the day, or the various 'bands, and I know I'd love to see an elaborate roguelike game of that ilk on the iThing. If it's an original game rather than a port of an existing one then so much the better.

It's good to hear that you're planning on giving it snazzier graphics. I love the smart graphics of Rogue Touch (I could never play these things with ASCII "graphics", that's just too hardcore for me) so I'm sure you will do a good job with these. One point though: to my mind, a *big* advantage of the simple and unanimated graphics of Rogue Touch, compared to many other games, is that they don't drain the battery. It is a really big plus to be able to play it for a long time on journeys without the device giving up the ghost. If the planned new game has more elaborate graphics and animations, will it drain the battery more? To some extent of course this isn't a problem, but I wouldn't like it to become like the real graphics-fest games where you have to recharge the device so much it's barely mobile at all!



You put it best: Rogue Touch isn't broken, and doesn't need fixing! These minor details should not be hard to squash, and allow the leaderboard to be an even playing field again.

Rogue Touch: Prelude is a great possibility for naming as well. Very glad to see the idea is well received, and I hope that I can make something appealing to seasoned veterans here as well as people just looking to try things out!


On to the "Project Unknown Title" or PUT as Steven calls it :D This game will be an original design by me, definitely a rogue-like, but not one that you've seen or played before. The depth of play will be greater than Rogue Touch, but simpler than Nethack, so you don't have to spend years learning the rules of the game.

Hopefully I didn't alarm anyone with references to Diablo. The new game will still be completely turn based! Ideas borrowed from Diablo will revolve around more interesting environments, animations, different types of equipment and items... "PUT" will *not* be an action click-fest. Movement and attacking will likely be identical to Rogue Touch - either tap the edges of the screen in 8 directions around your character (who remains centered), or use a D-pad if preferred. There will be a few other on-screen buttons this time as well (probably a dedicated ranged attack button for example).


Regarding randomly generated loot- This game will not be about collecting such mass quantities of loot that you can barely walk. Nearly all items will have some interesting, strategic use, even if it's not immediately obvious. Some items will have good and bad effects. Curses will still be out there as well. A point of interest, I may be eliminating the whole rust/armor concept that annoyed so many in Rogue. But be warned that different gameplay mechanics that also could be frustrating will be taking their place!


Different character classes- I am actually considering this heavily, but might shy away from it for the first release. There is actually a bit of storyline this time around, and a more specific main character rather than a nameless entity. Right now, I can say that there will be some provisions in place that make classes possible as an expansion to the initial game.


"Pets" or traveling companions- Not sure if those will make the cut yet, but I would like to be able to "summon" monsters to your aid... There will almost certainly be an enemy that is capable of this ;)


Regarding Graphics, performance- This is a very good and very valid issue! And it's something that I may lose a bit of sleep over. I want to balance the desire for a more beautiful game with more depth against the reality that battery life is not that great once you start with the "shiny"! Rogue Touch is pretty nice to your battery with it's lowly use of animation. If nothing is actively occurring on the screen, no re-draw takes place, unlike most games that feel the need to re-draw the screen 30 to 60 times per second. Something new in this game will be "idle animations", the type of thing you see in a lot of console and handheld games... like your character bouncing on his/her heels, waving a weapon around, etc. Same thing goes for monsters- foot tapping, wing flapping, and so on when sitting idle between movements and attacks.

Right now my test animations might have too many frames in them. Sure they look nice, but the memory usage and the amount of screen updates required could be ugly. I'm thinking something like 3 to 5 frames per second may be reasonable to the battery in comparison to other games.

Maybe I will post a few sample characters up today for you all to peek at. Remember that these might not be the final characters by any means. I've already spent money on these graphics, but if I need to rework them to better fit the final game I will :D

Be back later today hopefully with the sneak peek!
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby swhatley » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:15 am

CommanderData wrote:Regarding Graphics, performance- This is a very good and very valid issue! And it's something that I may lose a bit of sleep over. I want to balance the desire for a more beautiful game with more depth against the reality that battery life is not that great once you start with the "shiny"! Rogue Touch is pretty nice to your battery with it's lowly use of animation. If nothing is actively occurring on the screen, no re-draw takes place, unlike most games that feel the need to re-draw the screen 30 to 60 times per second. Something new in this game will be "idle animations", the type of thing you see in a lot of console and handheld games... like your character bouncing on his/her heels, waving a weapon around, etc. Same thing goes for monsters- foot tapping, wing flapping, and so on when sitting idle between movements and attacks.

Right now my test animations might have too many frames in them. Sure they look nice, but the memory usage and the amount of screen updates required could be ugly. I'm thinking something like 3 to 5 frames per second may be reasonable to the battery in comparison to other games.

CD, you might want to make idle animations a game option for those that want to reduce battery drain or for those folks where get tired of seeing the "unnecessary" (just picking a word out of the air) animations. Like, in Rogue Touch, I admit that I get tired of seeing the same graffiti messages repeating over and over when I am searching. A person may get bored with idle animations and wish to turn it off. Since, I mentioned my graffiti issue in RT, the finding of a coin or two in a crack gets old after awhile too. These extra messages many times make the important messages scroll off the screen too quick.

I don't want to sound like I'm griping but it would be nice to sometimes turn turn off the extra fluff so one could better concentrate on game play.

Thanks!
Steven
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby CommanderData » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:44 am

swhatley wrote:CD, you might want to make idle animations a game option for those that want to reduce battery drain or for those folks where get tired of seeing the "unnecessary" (just picking a word out of the air) animations. Like, in Rogue Touch, I admit that I get tired of seeing the same graffiti messages repeating over and over when I am searching. A person may get bored with idle animations and wish to turn it off. Since, I mentioned my graffiti issue in RT, the finding of a coin or two in a crack gets old after awhile too. These extra messages many times make the important messages scroll off the screen too quick.

I don't want to sound like I'm griping but it would be nice to sometimes turn turn off the extra fluff so one could better concentrate on game play.

Thanks!
Steven


You brought up an excellent point and reminded me of a those small annoyances in RT. I am going to change the random frequency on those to be MUCH less common, and even less so if you are wearing a ring of searching. It was cute, but it gets old fast. Simple things like this will only improve the final Rogue Touch experience.

Playing without idle animations in the new game could be an option to save battery life. Depending on the speed and style of your play you may barely even notice the animations exist. It's definitely a possible option setting.

Welcoming additional thoughts on the big write-up above from everyone else :mrgreen:
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby JonathanCR » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:21 pm

Yes, making "idle" animations optional is an excellent idea, and in my opinion would pretty much solve that issue completely. People can have them on when they're hooked up to a power supply or otherwise not bothered about the battery, and off when they want to eke it out for as long as possible. In fact the ideal solution, I think, would be to have several options available, for the various kinds of animation in the game - e.g. "idle animations on/off", "walk animations on/off", "battle animations on/off" or whatever - that way you can please everyone, and also make the animations as battery-hogging as you like, since whenever that's an issue people can just turn them off (or some of them off) as they see fit. (This assumes that turning these animations off won't affect the gameplay - I'm just guessing here.) It's also worth remembering that if animations take time to play (as they surely do), some people might want to turn (some of) them off after a while anyway to speed up the gameplay.

Otherwise, everything you say about the new game sounds great to me. I really do think it will help fill an otherwise under-exploited niche for the platform.
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby Glarvole » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:37 pm

I have a few thoughts. :D

For the rendered avatar, why not add that to the settings menu. You'd need to add a tag to the secret characters to have the male avatar display correctly (assuming you already do that for the females), and it would give you a chance to have She-Hulk and other female versions as well.

As for PUT, it sounds like you've thought this out well and are chomping at the bit to get it out. It sounds like an interesting concept, but I'm reluctant to think of ideas for this one... Being in the beginning proccess of making a game with some friends. I will say that I'd love to see not only a new variety of monsters, but would it be too mHuch strain to put random impartial and friendly monsters in the dungeon as well? If you're going to have classes (and I know this will make it complex, sorry) maybe certain monsters are always friendly to specific classes and will join fights against enemies with the hero. Others will ignore the hero unless attacked, or the hero is blocking their way. Some monsters will attack specific classes, and then you have the cranky ones that always attack the intruder.

The "helping hand" in fights wouldn't happen unless the monsters see the fight.

/random thoughts

8')
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:27 pm

Only other request I can think of to add to Rogue Touch is getting the "wipe the high scores clean" button so that you don't have to do the uninstall/reinstall dance. Couldn't remember if that one was already scheduled for 1.6 or not.
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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby GriffinBait » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:34 pm

I've played a lot of characters, but I'm not sure what, "1) Fix for 'level-dancing'," means. Is there something I haven't exploited yet?

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Re: A look at Rogue Touch, and the future of Rogue-Like gaming

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:59 pm

Level-Dancing: Descend to level 26 (or lower), pick up Amulet, ascend a chosen distance, drop Amulet, descend to level 26 (or lower).... repeat until satisfied.
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