In game store

Discussion about Rogue Touch for the iPhone and iPod Touch
Mbrandt21
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Re: In game store

Post by Mbrandt21 »

For buying potions at the store, why not have any image at all? you might as well just save the time of making an icon for a labeled or static potion by just having no icon for store potions.
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CommanderData
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Re: In game store

Post by CommanderData »

Zakia wrote:
CommanderData wrote:I agree limited stock seems to be a good idea. Don't want someone killing a dozen leprechauns and cashing in on 20 food and 10 enchant armor scrolls do we? :lol: Upgrading weapons, armor and whatnot directly for a fee is possible. I've also thought of the "traveling blacksmith" found in Shiren the Wanderer!
I noticed several times Leprachauns gave out huge chunks of cash.

I would still prefer no upgrade fees, and rather allow sale of preidentified scrolls. You'll be working on code for selling items, so why not sell scrolls along with them?

Also, I believe you will (...End up, likely) be working on a system to keep people from seeing the colors of a potion prior to purchase (Store label, mabye?) so that people don't take a peek in a store and write a mental note of the nasty potions.

EX:
Before store:
1 Black Potion
Store:
Potion of Confusion: 120 gold.
[Label or something on graphic to prevent you from seeing color]
Lets say you buy it and peel off the label. When you check your inventory, you have 2 black potions. Turns out you already had one.

If you identify both black potions however via purchase, you can sell them back for a higher price than unidentified (An idea I just mentioned). Therefore purchases should be shown as identified in store, but appear in your inventory as unidentified.

The same situation above can be molded into Scrolls, except instead of a Label over the color you need to remove the incantation of a scroll in the store window.

I'm probably not making much sense, but I'll TL;DR:
*There's no point in writing a code for upgrades when there are already scrolls, and you will likely end up working with potions anyway, so why not knock scroll sales out on the road?
*Items shown in store as identified, but appear in inventory as unidentified after purchase (Preventing sell abuse)
*Labels placed over in-store potion graphics to foil anyone window shopping for potion effects. Same goes with scroll incantations.

I agree in the short term that it may not make sense to do a special set of code simply for upgrading weapons and armor when buying scrolls would suffice. If we did add a "traveling blacksmith" wandering the dungeon and independent of any shops, you could get some benefits of equipment upgrades without the ability to buy tons of other game-unbalancing magic items at the same time though. He may make an appearance at a later date.

As for selling abuse, that's tricky. I'd like our hero to know the item he purchased- hey, he shelled out cash for a potion of confusion, the shopkeeper hands him one. He shouldn't promptly forget what it is once it hits his pack if he's never used one. I guess we'll need to think of another motivator. I think that if you don't know what the item is, the shopkeeper should always offer you a low, fixed amount. Say you have a nice shiny staff. Only you have no idea what it is. You offer it to the shopkeeper and he says... nah, I don't have much use for that, but how about I give you 10 gold for it? Then after he buys it turns out it was a staff of fire with 10 charges on it! Of course he won't let you have it back for 10 gold :lol:

Mbrandt21 wrote:For buying potions at the store, why not have any image at all? you might as well just save the time of making an icon for a labeled or static potion by just having no icon for store potions.

I kind of like having the little icon images myself, just to make it feel less "spartan" on the screen. But we don't really need a special graphic. We could just pick a single potion icon and make *all* potions in the store use that image (worst case is we make one new color and use it only in the shops to avoid confusion). Then for the descriptions we drop the identifier text ( Potion of poison (red) would simply become Potion of poison). Same idea for rings, staves, and scrolls. You'll see what effect it has when looking to buy, but not have a way to compare it with the material, color, or inscriptions of items you already have! :D
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Zakia
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Re: In game store

Post by Zakia »

You understood O_o

Well, having an item identified upon purchase identifies all items of that type. Say I had 5 unidentified black potions. I would buy a potion of restore health and realize my potions were that type. I'd then be able to sell all 6 to the store for SIGNIFICANT PROFIT.

New example of a system that prevents this:
Buy a Potion of Restore Health?
Deal. It's color was black. Check your inventory.
(6 unidentified black potions)

Now we'd only have to do this for scrolls and potions, mind you. Although this is a minor inconvinience (I'd hate this a ton with my memory problems) It avoids totally breaking the game.

BTW (I dunno where to put this), thanks for being very open to suggestions ^_^. It's a great help!
Last edited by Zakia on Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's nothing in the world as ruthless or impartial as death. All living matter ages over time and eventually dies... No matter how mighty or tiny its life force... So being alive means you're creeping closer to death with every second...
~Miguel
Mbrandt21
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The Solution!!!

Post by Mbrandt21 »

I think I have a solution, when you go to the store and look at the potions they all have a label stuck over them or there all static color or something right? and lets say you buy a potion of poison (color is static), but what you didn't know was that the 2 unidentified green potions in your inventory were also potions of poison. So to avoid someone indentifing all their potions, we make it so when you buy a potion from the store it still is static! because it doesn't matter at all that it is static color, the important part is that you know its a potion of poison, and the unidentified potions in your inventory are still unidentified. You can do the same things with scrolls too. And if you buy multiple potions from the store they are all static color but they act like colored ones in your inventory.

EX

Player inventory

color---------------Potion Name
green--------------unidentified (but it is a potion of poison, you just don't know it)
static--------------potion of poison
static--------------potion of confusion
yellow-------------potion of shield
red----------------unidentified (potion of restore health)
static--------------potion of restore health
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CommanderData
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Re: The Solution!!!

Post by CommanderData »

Mbrandt21 wrote:I think I have a solution, when you go to the store and look at the potions they all have a label stuck over them or there all static color or something right? and lets say you buy a potion of poison (color is static), but what you didn't know was that the 2 unidentified green potions in your inventory were also potions of poison. So to avoid someone indentifing all their potions, we make it so when you buy a potion from the store it still is static! because it doesn't matter at all that it is static color, the important part is that you know its a potion of poison, and the unidentified potions in your inventory are still unidentified. You can do the same things with scrolls too. And if you buy multiple potions from the store they are all static color but they act like colored ones in your inventory.

EX

Player inventory

color---------------Potion Name
green--------------unidentified (but it is a potion of poison, you just don't know it)
static--------------potion of poison
static--------------potion of confusion
yellow-------------potion of shield
red----------------unidentified (potion of restore health)
static--------------potion of restore health

I think there may actually be a way to implement something like that without too much extra work!

Basically, items as you pick them up in the dungeon have a "group" attribute that lets me decide if the new item goes into a stack with others in your inventory (by comparing "group" numbers to look for a matching group).

The trick would be to NOT assign a group to anything bought in a store. This would have two functions:

1) The purchased item would not be placed with other items of its kind. This combined with a special shop "icon" for potions and descriptions that do not include the color, material, or scroll verbage would keep you from identifying anything in your pack.

2) Since the item is not placed with others of its kind, it prevents you from loading up on 30+ potions of healing. This is because each item purchased in a shop will take up one slot in your inventory, and you only have limited carrying capacity :mrgreen:


Something along these lines prevents auto-identification cheating and also prevents buying so much stuff that you unbalance the game's difficulty! :twisted:
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Zakia
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Re: In game store

Post by Zakia »

Great idea! ^_^
There's nothing in the world as ruthless or impartial as death. All living matter ages over time and eventually dies... No matter how mighty or tiny its life force... So being alive means you're creeping closer to death with every second...
~Miguel
Mbrandt21
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:02 pm

Re: In game store

Post by Mbrandt21 »

Yeah that sounds like a great way to solve the "potions and scrolls" problem. But I think that each store bought item taking one slot, even if they are the same thing sounds rediculous. if you have a limit of 30 items in your inventory, and you buy 5 health potions 5 scrolls and 5 potions of poison, thats 15 slots, making half of your inventory full, leaving almost no space for items you find in game. Instead we could simply put a cap on store bought items, let's say you can have a maximum of 5 health potions in your inventory, that would prevent you from stocking up on health potions and still allow you to have space for items you find in game. But, store bought potions and in game potions should still group seperatly.

So basically my idea is to make store bought potions and scrolls still group together, but simply put a limit on how many you can have.
gaerisl
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Re: In game store

Post by gaerisl »

i disagree with limiting the number of a certain item you can carry- because, while it does prevent someone from buying 20 food at a time, it does not prevent someone from buying 4 armor enchant scrolls, using them all, then buying another 4, using them, and repeating again and again.
this can be said also about potions of gain strength. you may be limited to carrying just 3 of them. but if you buy/drink/buy/drink, it defeats the purpose of the limit on items.


also, it goes against the luck-factor of the game. (and luck=fun)
the luck factor has two uses- it allows you to get really lucky in the short term, but balances it out in the long term.
(mathy way of saying this: it allows for larger standard deviation and error for individual random events, but, in the end, the average of random events will always converge towards the mean.)
(in non-mathy terms: For example, killed 20 leprechauns, and now have 20k gold, you are lucky. if you had a non-randomized shop, you will be able to buy 20 food. (you continue to be lucky because the shop's items are not random, and your money continues to make you lucky) ,if you had a randomized shop, the shop may only have nothing you need and crappy items. (you are no longer lucky, because the shop was a random event, and it was not in your favor. your gold is useless now, and you are no longer lucky.)


Therefore, I say there should be no limits on the number of a certain item you can carry, because we all need the lure of the idea of being extremely lucky. however, the more thing that are random, the better. because the chances we'll actually be hax-level-lucky is like flipping 10 heads in a row- it rarely happens.


anyways,i see two ways of solving shop abuse:
1) the store has a randomized and limited stock of items laying on the floor. randomized items, only one blue potion? doesn't matter what it is, if you buy it and find out it's a potion of gain level, it's ok because, the shop's got no more. also, with this method of shop, it just makes the game even more random with more luck-factor!
2) if you want a buy-unlimited stock store (store has as many of whatever as you can afford), then, limit your carrying capacity on food and potions, but do not sell (unlimited amounts) of things that induce permanent change. (gain strength, enchant armor, raise level, etc)


personally, i like #1.
I played calc rogue in the past.. and the best part of shops was just the tingling sensation, knowing that if you find a secret door, it could lead to a shop with lots of unknown items. sometimes it's a huge shop with 20 items. sometimes it's only a 3x2 room with 4 items on sale.

nothing beats obsessively looking for a secret door to a secret shop on every level.
and nothing beats buying an expensive sword and then finding out it was cursed >.>
Mbrandt21
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Re: In game store

Post by Mbrandt21 »

i disagree with limiting the number of a certain item you can carry- because, while it does prevent someone from buying 20 food at a time, it does not prevent someone from buying 4 armor enchant scrolls, using them all, then buying another 4, using them, and repeating again and again.
this can be said also about potions of gain strength. you may be limited to carrying just 3 of them. but if you buy/drink/buy/drink, it defeats the purpose of the limit on items.


also, it goes against the luck-factor of the game. (and luck=fun)
the luck factor has two uses- it allows you to get really lucky in the short term, but balances it out in the long term.
(mathy way of saying this: it allows for larger standard deviation and error for individual random events, but, in the end, the average of random events will always converge towards the mean.)
(in non-mathy terms: For example, killed 20 leprechauns, and now have 20k gold, you are lucky. if you had a non-randomized shop, you will be able to buy 20 food. (you continue to be lucky because the shop's items are not random, and your money continues to make you lucky) ,if you had a randomized shop, the shop may only have nothing you need and crappy items. (you are no longer lucky, because the shop was a random event, and it was not in your favor. your gold is useless now, and you are no longer lucky.)
gaerisl, CD is probably going to make it so the stores will have limited stock anyway, there will be no stores with unlimited stock. If stores had unlimited stock, you could do exactly what you explained. That is to buy 4 potions of gain level and then use them and buy another 4 and repeat like 3 times or something. But most likely stores will have a stock of only 30-40 items or so, and probably not more then 2-3 of the same potions.
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CommanderData
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Re: In game store

Post by CommanderData »

To go along with everything said here, I agree that the shop should have a limited stock of items! Ideally the really interesting, powerful, or unique stuff will be one of a kind in the shop. I'm also considering having items in the shop that are NOT available to be found by any other means, just to whet your appetite a bit! :D
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